Yeah, I always find it amusing when people find russia and china on a lower moral/ethical ground when everything on american soil is equally watched and processed. if not by nsa, it's for ads.
Please take a look at the Human Rights Watch reports[0] for USA, China and Russia. I honestly wonder how you can reach such a conclusion about freedom of expression and human rights in those countries.
Mmm, I'd agree but the parent is specifically talking about surveillance, not about all human rights, and it's true - the US likes to condemn cyber-espionage and surveillance while simultaneously spying on the entirety of the planet and attacking/infiltrating the planet as it sees fit.
Human Rights Watch being an American organisation, led by a member of the US power elite (e.g. Goldman Sachs, Soros' OSF) might have something to do with it?
As someone who resides in the USA, I'd rather China or Russia have access to my data, regardless of any abuse of human rights. Unlike the US, they're extremely limited in how they can use my data to harm me.
The problem is that they can sell your data to someone more interested in targeting you specifically. If that happens within the US there is a means to litigate the guilty parties. Outside, you're SOL.
You don't need to look there, at all. Just look at the US aggressive wars and subversive activities in this century, e.g. Iraq, Libya and it becomes clear that the value of human rights abroad from the US point of view is exactly 0.
Iraq was a disgrace but bringing up Libya means you are either ignorant or being disingenuous. Gaddafi had imminent plans to commit another cleansing of the opposition. It was always going to be a lose-lose situation for human rights. Doing nothing is not always the right answer.
the current situation with incarcerations in america sounds horrible, yes, but its a far cry from systematically eradicatingmillions of people per year...
Really? I don't see much difference. Slavery is slavery. Torture is torture. Rape is rape. The first two are legal in prison and all three are widely practiced as punishment. Yes, you have a better chance of surviving our prisons, but by that point, your life is ruined and pretty much over anyway. There are much worse things than death.
Exactly!, I mean for sure slavery is not so bad too if you treat the slaves nicely right? Systematically enslaving them is also a far cry from eradicating them right?
Asking seriously, but isn't Russia fundamentally closer to a kleptocracy? Dishonesty is apparently more pervasive and built in to their culture. From my understanding, bribe culture and cheating are an accepted norm. Not to say these characteristics do not exist in America, just not anywhere to the same extent?
I've lived in SPB for a few years now (american expat), and there's...some truth to it. The idea of cops just grifting you non-stop is overstated; more likely than not they just wanna not have to do work. Even when it comes to checking documents for folks from the southern countries (uzbekistan, tajikistan, etc) most of the time the police try to speed stuff along so they can get back to smoking, having tea, or stopping off at a kebab place.
Even though everyone I know here calls the process "bribing", it's greasing the wheels - in some ways, it's bad that it happens. At the same time though, everyone is allowed to participate in the bribing and whoever takes the bribes can and will settle for what they can get.
I wouldn't say dishonesty is more pervasive - quite the opposite, most people are brutally honest, sometimes to a fault. When it comes to official things, it's true, you can grease the wheels and get preferential treatment. Certain problems can go away with a few well placed notes, and so on. Schools are a bit different too since the collapse of the Soviet Union. From what I'm told, there's a lot of pressure from the state to ensure that students pass, so students will repeat through classes as long as necessary to pass them, and often professors will just give out the lowest possible passing grade to get rid of bad students. A little bit of cash will net you a better grade, which will get you access to better universities.
Just as an outsider looking in and watching, I see it more as the same bad system that exists elsewhere but at least the system is open to everyone.
No, I think you're conflating when I'm specifically talking about just getting better service.
See there's another slight disconnect with service in Russia versus service in the US. You ever have someone go out of their way to make something easier or better for you as part of their job? Go the extra mile? That's not really the status quo in Russia. You goof up your registration form at the post office (one mistake on the 4th page of a 10 page document)? Guess who's filling it out again, even if the office worker has white out handy. Only have 30 minutes to take care of something at the nearby government office but it happens to be 1:45 pm and time for the official's tea break? Guess who's not getting their document done.
When people are talking about greasing the wheel, it's getting access to systems they otherwise don't have. It's people going the extra mile on demand, getting the inside scoop, making sure a document gets processed today, taking care of problems for you internally. Do the big bribes happen? Yeah, I'm not denying that. My point more is that the "bribes" that are talked about so much aren't really what we normally think of as bribes.
> You goof up your registration form at the post office (one mistake on the 4th page of a 10 page document)? Guess who's filling it out again, even if the office worker has white out handy.
That's pretty much my experience in most government offices in the US, too.
> When people are talking about greasing the wheel, it's getting access to systems they otherwise don't have.
Paying privately to the official for access for service from public officials that is not generally made available is "bribery". Yes, "greasing the wheel" is a euphemism for bribery that is often used particularly for small bribes for small favors (though "small" is relative to who is speaking.)
> My point more is that the "bribes" that are talked about so much aren't really what we normally think of as bribes.
They are exactly what most people with experience in domains where there is the kind of lack of accountability which makes pervasive bribery a thing expect as the most common kind of bribery. (When there is some accountability, the perceived risk/reward of smaller transactions becomes less favorable more quickly than is the case for larger transactions -- if as a public employee you are going to get fired and be unemployable in the public sector, and maybe prosecuted, if you are caught taking any bribe, and there is even a modest risk of detection in even small bribes, its no longer worth it to take small bribes in any case.)
The implied difference is that in bribery you're asking the official to do something that they must not do, to have him act against his employer.
To use a restaurant analogy, tipping the bartender to get quicker service is "greasing the wheels" but tipping the bartender to get drinks "on the house" or to get an exclusive event without paying the bar owner - that would be bribery.
> The implied difference is that in bribery you're asking the official to do something that they must not do, to have him act against his employer.
That's not the usual definition of "bribery" (though generally it is true of all bribery, including the type you are trying to distinguish, since taking extra personal pay for service is usually formally prohibited, even in places where it isn't effectively enforced, so even what you try to distinguish as "greasing the wheels" as distinct from "bribery" is asking the official to do something that they must not do, and acting against the employer.)
Russian culture and the current situation in the country are quite different. Honesty and sincerity are highly valued traits, to the point that Westerners are still labeled as disingenuous for smiling too much - Russians view this as fake and therefore less trustworthy. This of course is changing, as the younger generations are more exposed to western behaviors.
The real problem is the economic situation and people that focus on personal enrichment by any means instead of building something sustainable. Basically, in an environment where you cannot be sure of what next year is going to look like, it's brutally rational to try and extract as much value now, as opposed to invest for the future.
As the result, you get everything from poor infrastructure investment and lack of true small business growth, all the way to bribing because the official taking the bribe isn't sure he or she will have this access tomorrow, so better to enrich now and as fast as possible.
This is not something that is endemic to Russian culture, but rather to the survival situation. Unfortunately, Russia seems to teeter in this state for centuries at a time.
Go on and try offering "campaign financing", or "creative accounting" to a policeman stopped you for speeding somewhere in California. Don't forget to record it on your smartphone.
In Russia, literally ANY road policeman not only takes bribes, but has a bag of tricks how to get more from you.
Unfortunately it's well-known to me, from my own experience. (10+ years of driving on Russian roads, 4+ in California)
And I understand what you're saying. Similar things are happening when your child goes to school/college/etc. You pay for smth and she/he gets preferences. As I see, it's common both in US and Russia.
But between bribing and things you mentioned there is one essential difference, that changes everything. It's this question:
- Are rules known in advance, are they written and available in public?
I believe this question helps to distinguish black and white.
I don't think you can lump Russia and China together. China is truly "on lower moral/ethical grounds". I can't trust any country that has such pervasive censorship policy and such blatantly protectionist policies as China. Frankly I trust the Russian government as much as I trust the US government or as much as I trust my government (the Mexican government). I don't think I would feel safe living in China! I wouldn't even travel to China but that's just me.
What about a country which has one forth of the China population which has institutional rules about the police being able to seize the money you carry, your money on cards you carry and your car without even charging you with an offense, where 6% of the black population is in jail, and 1% of the total population, and where you can be routinely shot dead if you are mentally disabled or if you play poker at home or accused of treason of you publish information about some of the most impacting activities of the govt? I've already been in Russia, but I'll never go to USA.
I can't find the highly graphic one about the one who got shot, like, 18 times, while was unarmed in front of a shop. Anyway poker shooting is a reality: It's illegal gambling, therefore it's considered high-level criminality.
Not to judge who's right or wrong, who's "supposed to know" and who's at risk - I'm only saying the risk of being shot dead by the USA police is immensely higher than in any other country in the world, including Russia and China.
I've been in China three times in the past year. I agree that it is creepy not to be able to access Gmail, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube. But in terms of personal safety and freedom to walk around and see things, I felt very free. I feel more nervous walking around most North American cities' downtown area (LA, NYC, SF, Chicago). And also Mexico city.
Nervousness with regard to both police and local citizenry.
Russia is on a much lower ground ethically. China hasn't recently annexed territories from its neighbours whom they promised to protect and support just a few years ago.
In this aspect there is really no differences between these 3 countries, China hasn't started a war like US, but using it's power to push boundaries in both west and east.
It isn't exactly a moral point but the recognition of two items: 1) the large number of people who are employed at cyber crime in certain parts of the world 2) the recognition that certain countries have a vested interest in reading the emails of the people of certain other countries
Certain people in various countries could make a similar argument about US hosted emails. This is how the world works.
