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One thing that always bugged me about air travel in the US is the time you spend on the ground, standing in queues, pulling your shoes off, putting them back on again.

You'll say that this is for better security. It's not an effective way to achieve better security. In Europe, queues are shorter and people only have to remove their shoes when there's a reason for it. Europe has not exploded yet - put it down to behavioral profiling, making good use of extant security measures and (for the most part) having enough personnel to avoid the building up of queues.

To pick the restaurant analogy, it has the same effect on the airlines as it would for a restaurant to have pseudo-policemen sit in front of their door and bully everyone, building up a long queue.



You'll say that this is for better security.

I doubt many here on HN would say that.

It makes for better theater perhaps, but, really, it's just a way to bolster that theater industry. Personally, I don't think the feds are very good at entertaining.

It's certainly made flying between Southern California and the Bay Area take long enough that driving doesn't seem as preposterous an alternative, especially for a last-minute trip.

High-speed rail, with a 3-hour travel time would even be comparable, until, of course, somebody tries to bring exploding shoes on board or realizes that downtown LA isn't likely to host a convenient car rental facility any time soon.


This winter I took train from Seattle to Vancouver, BC. There was a security check before boarding the train, but it was much much faster than airport.

Train was patrolled by assault rifle-armed guards in bullet-proof vests, some had dogs. I still trying to imagine what is the threat profile they were trying to respond to.


A train bombing can be massively destructive, as has happened in London and Madrid. You mention that you were traveling to visit the winter Olympics: imagine the effect of a mass casualty attack close to the venue, in a town full of foreign visitors. Besides the immediate loss of life and panic, the resulting investigation would be difficult and almost certainly involve a large number of mistaken arrests, to say nothing of the global publicity which most extremists crave.


I don't know if this was standard security or it was there for the Olympics, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out either way. It was just surprising since they were relatively heavily armed.

As for the bombing threat: bad guys don't need to be on the train to bomb the train. Also, unlike commuter train or subway it's a "low people-density" train.


It's not that I think this security theater is so logical or effective. I think it's often a waste of money and resent the ubiquitous impositions it creates, although I think this may change somewhat after next year.*

But it does attempt to address some basic realities: the most attractive place to cause damage is at the incoming station, where a crowd will be waiting for the train; getting a parcel onto the train will require passing armed police/troops (and who knows what else? dogs? electronic detectors? the uncertainty is meant to erode a terrorist's confidence); there's a reasonable chance a bomb would be carried by a human, given a) the demonstrated preference for suicide bombings among Islamic fundamentalists and b) the relatively low participation by Islamic countries in winter sports, reducing the probability of a would-be martyr inadvertently blowing up co-religionists.

In a nutshell, the sight of heavily armed guards is, sadly, meant to look familiar and imposing to potential terrorists - because many Middle Eastern countries have paramilitary-type law enforcement. Polite and discreet security (eg the US secret service guys in their suits, or friendly-looking beat cops) wouldn't make a terrorist feel especially nervous - the same way that kids don't take mall cops very seriously because they don't have guns or tasers.

* When I go downtown, the subway station restrooms are still locked with increasingly faded stickers on them saying 'closed for security reasons due to September 11 attack'. The 10 year anniversary of that event will be a sad one, but at the same time a decade seems to be the difference between past and present for most people. So my hunch is that after it passes, there will be a lot of questioning along the lines of '10 years on, do we still need this?'

In that light, and with an election the following year, the question of budgets will also arise. the Department of Homeland Security costs about $56 billion/year. For comparison, the Department of Justice (including the FBI, DEA, and all the other law enforcement agencies) costs less than half that amount. The entire Federal court system costs under $7 billion/year. So I think a reassessment of our security strategy is on the horizon.


Yes but it's hard to see how machine guns prevent somebody having left a 'package' under seat. It's like how after 911 there were tanks at Heathrow airport - in case of hijacker on a plane? Or in case the hijackers decide to attack the airport with a wave of T32 ?


How long did the trip end up taking, and how much did it cost? I'm curious if there's much, if any, time savings versus driving[1].

[1] With a highly variable border crossing time if not all passengers hold a NEXUS card


The cost was around $80 for business class which is something like $10 more expensive than regular.

Travel time is 4 hours (driving is 2 hours). Border check is in Vacouver, so we just rushed around slowly walking people not to get stuck in line.

In general it makes more sense to drive than to take this train. We took it because we were going to Olympic Games and we were afraid that border wait time will be unpredictable (it turned out it was completely ok on that day, but we already had the tickets) and for sightseeing reasons. It was also refreshing not to worry about parking and to use public transportation, which is quite usable in Vancouver (compared to Seattle, for example)


More often than not I spend more time at the airport than on the plane. Treat me like a human. Have a zillion power ports. Have free wifi. Have desks to sit at. Spare computers ala libraries. Have restaurants with food that isn't so horrible. How about couches or rocking chairs? How about a library? How about an video game demo station? Mini museum pieces that change every few months. art to look at? Music listening station?

My dream airline would be one where I could be dropped off on the tarmack, hop on the next plane that is taking off (think bus stop) and be on my way. No getting there three hours in advance.

Still doesn't help that at the end of the day airports are typically not at your destination. You have to first travel to the airport and once at your flights destination you still have to travel to your final destination.


" Treat me like a human. Have a zillion power ports. Have free wifi. Have desks to sit at. Spare computers ala libraries. Have restaurants with food that isn't so horrible. How about couches or rocking chairs? How about a library? ..."

Most of those things exist in airline lounges.

"My dream airline would be one where I could be dropped off on the tarmack, hop on the next plane that is taking off (think bus stop) and be on my way. No getting there three hours in advance."

That exists. They're called charter flights.

"Still doesn't help that at the end of the day airports are typically not at your destination."

Charter flights for that, too. You can use smaller airports that are likely close to your destination.

So all those things already exist. It's just that they're really expensive. So really the dream is to have first class lounges and charter flights available cheaply and for the masses. That's probably never going to happen, because such things really do cost a lot of money to run and because then there would be even less differentiation for the expensive tickets.


> for a restaurant to have pseudo-policemen sit in front of their door and bully everyone, building up a long queue.

So, like a bouncer at a club?


Except you can't bribe the TSA, nor are they influenced by how beautiful or "cool" you are.




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