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Biking by itself is not that dangerous. Biking near cars is dangerous. If you want to drive around in a 2 ton vehicle with the power to kill, you better damn be responsible for it.

Also, there is an imbalance in incentives to not get in an accident. If a car and a bike get in a wreck, the person driving has almost no risk of injury where the person on bike is at risk of dying or getting seriously injured, depending on the situation. This law gives people driving a little more reason to be more careful.

Also, keep in mind in the US, if a car hits a pedestrian, the driver's insurance always pays no matter whose at fault.



Biking by itself is not that dangerous

It is if you are a pedestrian. This is also typical of a cyclist's attitude that their vehicle is the only one that matters; impossible to do any harm - it is most certainly possible for a cyclist to cause an accident between two other vehicles that is caused by their lack of due care. (e.g. car A hits car B instead of hitting cyclist C that is running a red.)

You're suggesting C walks as if nothing happened, I'm suggesting that it is an irresponsible law that allows this.

If you want to drive around in a 2 ton vehicle with the power to kill, you better damn be responsible for it.

I'm not suggesting that a car driver should not be at fault. I'm suggesting that all individuals on the road be held to the same standard.

Also, there is an imbalance in incentives to not get in an accident.

I realize this, which is why I provided my example, specifically. Do you not agree that the same imbalance exists for the driver of the mini?


I'm not suggesting that a car driver should not be at fault. I'm suggesting that all individuals on the road be held to the same standard.

This is a way of holding drivers to the same high standards of care and attention that cyclists have to hold for their own self interest. The same standard is not enough when the power balance is so skewed and defaults towards cars.


This is a way of holding drivers to the same high standards of care and attention that cyclists have to hold for their own self interest.

This is precisely the type of attitude I take issue with. One would think that cyclists would behave like the vulnerable vehicles they are, yet a 15 minute observation of the typical cyclist will no doubt show numerous traffic offences, inclusive of some that most motor vehicle operators would never think of committing. This is common knowledge to all who use the roads we are supposed to share.

Cyclists are no better - or worse, to be fair - when it comes obeying the rules of the road than any other participant, be they pedestrian or motor vehicle operator.

I think you actually encourage bad behaviour by removing or lessening liability for a class of road user dependent on their ease of injury. Road safety starts with personal responsibility: understanding that you are doing an inherently dangerous thing with a fast moving vehicle that could result in your death and the death of others.

Asking others to shoulder this responsibility for you because of your vehicle choice is irresponsible, and in my mind contrary to a fair and just law.


This is precisely the type of attitude I take issue with. One would think that cyclists would behave like the vulnerable vehicles they are, yet a 15 minute observation of the typical cyclist will no doubt show numerous traffic offences, inclusive of some that most motor vehicle operators would never think of committing. This is common knowledge to all who use the roads we are supposed to share.

I don't have any data to support or desupport this claim that a 'typical' cyclist will show 'numerous' traffic offenses in any given 15 minute observation. Anecdotally, today I saw a car stopped in a no-stop zone, a car pulling off a roundabout without indicating, cars pulling onto a pavement and two cyclists crossing at a crossing onto a cycle path and one cyclist pulling over to let cars past.

I take issue with this:

I think you actually encourage bad behaviour by removing or lessening liability for a class of road user dependent on their ease of injury. Road safety starts with personal responsibility

Because you are suggesting that cyclists don't care about being injured, but only whether it will cost them money or not, as if a broken leg and a week off work is fine as long as it's free.

understanding that you are doing an inherently dangerous thing with a fast moving vehicle that could result in your death and the death of others.

Road safety is about this - an understanding that you are involved in traffic and what you do matters. It's just that what motorists do matters more because it is amplified by their machinery.

A cyclist cuts up a car and they swerve to avoid it and hit another car. Any traffic going at a speed where a cyclist could cut them up is slow enough that the cars would crunch a bit. A car cuts up a cyclist and the cyclist swerves into something, and the cyclist gets hurt.

For the sake of their own safety, cyclists should be as careful as they can be. For the sake of avoiding causing accidents cyclists should be careful. But for the sake of protecting cyclists as a class of society, car drivers should be held to a higher standard. That doesn't say cyclists should be held to no standard, it says people whose actions are amplified should have to be more careful than people whose actions are not.


I always find it interesting when drivers expect all bikers to follow every 'rule of the road' - meanwhile special laws grant cars the unique ability to pass a biker in otherwise no passing zones: one way single lane, double yellow, etc. Either understand that the two modes of transportation are different and deserve different laws, or don't expect special case laws for either mode.


In your somewhat contrived example the cyclist could certainly be cited for reckless behavior.


but, the car drivers would pay the increased premium as if they drove their car into a wall. I have a problem with that.


From a legal and personal responsibility standpoint, the law is lopsided, but it may act as a deterrent to driving in the first place, thereby encouraging bike use. I think that's what the OP of this thread was trying to get at.


I don't think encouraging behaviour of any sort should trump personal responsibility and (more importantly) legal liability.




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