In a reverse of that, I like to add "sacrifical lambs" -- givebacks -- to my first quote.
For example, in 2008 I took a step into the big leagues (as I saw it). I had a mid-grade developers salary ($75k) for a couple years, and 7 years in the industry, and I wanted to step up.
I found a great opporunity for a profitable bootsrtapped startup in a beautiful city but one that was not by any stretch a technology hub.
I nailed a phone interview. He asked what I was looking for. I said $110k, match my current 3.4 week vacation, and $6k for relocation. He asked what I was making now. "About 10% less than that" i said. (I fibbed).
I focus on the top-line. The relo and extra vacation were nice, but most importantly they were bargaining chips.
I was flown down for interviews. Things went great. HR directory during the interview asked my comp needs, I told her the same I told the manager on the phone the previous week.
Everything went great. I flew home. Two days later, I get a call from HR lady.
"We think you'd be a great addition to the team. We'd like to extend you an offer."
Her offer was.... $75k, match my vaca and my relco request. My heart sank.
I paused for a moment and said "I make more than that now (lie). My original quote has some room to negotiate but that's outside my range." To which she said "We think this is fair, many of our senior guys make this." We talked for 10 more mins, I was getting nowhere. She was your usual hard-nosed HR type. So I excused myself and told her I'm thrilled they made and offer and I'd like some time to think it over.
For a moment I was bitter. That this was all a waste of my time. I flew across the country. I told them up front the range I was considering. Twice!
But then I thought, it's possible that they have no less a notion of actually paying me $75k than I have of actually getting everything in my quote.
So, I decided I needed to skirt HR. The hiring manager gave me his card at the interview. I called his office line. I said "Look, let me level with you" (lie) "The comp package I presented to you is fair I think. But I'd be willing to give a little back and earn the rest on merit once I'm working for you. I think being on your team would be a great thing for my career. But i just cannot take a pay cut to work for you." He asked what I was making now. I reiterated my fib from earlier. "I've hit bonus here every year, and my total comp is about $100k exactly."
I thought, I'm making him wince. He had to feel like he came up with a good deal. But my lie here boxed him in. He could offer $100k -- a lateral move -- but that seems a little wrong. He could do a token increase -- $103k but that seems almost a joke.
I hadn't yet actually made a counter-proposal, so I did just that. I was going to start by sacrificing the extra vaca. That extra 1.4 weeks vacation was a benefit worth about $3k a year at this rate. But in my preamble he just in passing made a comment about the vacation not being a problem because it's a small company and HR isn't really involved in that, the manager approves vacation without any guidelines or limits.
So, the next lamb on my list was the relo money. I had 3 positions built-in to my $6k quote:
1) I designed it so they could easily counter at a nice round $5k, feel like they got a good deal, and my relo was largely paid for.
2) I would propose that I pay for relo out of pocket and the reimburse me only for the movers themselves -- about $3k
3) Outright elimination.
I said "honestly, I really want to come work for you (true). I know my current comp is so high that you're boxed-in a bit, I'm already up against the top of your range it seems. (lie).
"I've used United Vanlines before. They were great. Some looking around made me feel the movers themselves would cost about $3k. In lieu of cash, I would be happy to pay the relo out of pocket and then submit the invoice from United for reimbursement. "
He talked around it for a mement then he tipped his hand a bit: "I like the creativity", he began, "but honestly the CEO here is against any kind of cash payment for new hires. No signing bonus. No relocation. Etc. He pays it, but begrudgingly. We feel we'd rather spread that money around to existing team members because you never know how a new hire will work out."
Then he said "I'll talk this over. We can probably find a way to match what you're making now if we go ahead and just reimburse you for the movers."
I liked where he was going with that but we werent' there yet. I cut him off.
"Truthfully, you live in a gorgeous city. It's no doubt an amazing place to live. I really feel like a 10% raise and a chance to work for you will make me feel good about the decision to leave behind all my roots here, all my friends and family. I really want to come work for you guys but I feel like any hint of shortchanging myself will start us off on the wrong foot. If we can make another go at that $110k quote, I'd be happy to pay relocation out of my pocket.
He said he'd have to run it by the CEO.
He calls back 30 mins later. "The best we can do is $109k and the normal process where we do a review and increase after 6 months would, for you, be moved to your 1 year anniversary. Now tell me, when can you start?"
I was elated. I just got myself a $35,000 raise. A nearly 50% increase on top of my $75k base.
Having the givebacks is important! It got me a LOT more from than.
A little post-game analysis though:
1) I thought the HR woman always hated me. Maybe because I went around her. Maybe because she thought they were grossly overpaying me. I dunno.
2) I later learned i was the highest paid guy on the team. When I ascended into a management roll I was given access to salary info though, in an oversight from HR, my managers salary was also listed. What did he have the month I was hired? An increase. From $106k to $116k. My negotiation got HIM a raise. A manager can't make less than his reports.
3) Being the highest paid guy isn't a good thing. It's really hard to outperform everybody else. So onlookers -- like, say, a micro managing CEO -- will question the salary gap. Also, I won't forget the day I bought a new Mercedes and I was asked to not make a big deal out of it and if asked, say that "I saved up for this for years." Ugh. Please.
4) NEGOTIATE EVERYTHING in the future.
5) I would've been smart to negotiate myself a future raise. Because I wasn't given any increase for 18 months, and even then only after pestering.
EDIT:
Let me add that I did this to deliberately try to swing for the fences. I was happy enough where I was.
Also, I had a perfect resume for this company. My technical merits were very strong, but more importantly, I had a lot of relevant domain knowledge.
I therefore felt i was in a strong bargaining position. Nowadays, if you're good at what you do, the way it';s so hard to find good devs means you probably are in a strong position as well.
<i>I would strongly recommend against doing this, for the simple reason that they will need to know your last salary so they can calculate your tax. In the UK this is the P45 form: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P45_%28tax%29 If you have lied to them, they can terminate you immediately.</i>
There's no equivalent in the US. There's never any reason a future employer ever needs to know what you earned in the past.
If you work for a government entity, they might be able to find that out, as it may be public information easily obtained, but barring that, there's no way they can find out (legally).
<quote>there's no way they can find out (legally)</quote>
Really? Is that really true? What about all the forms one signs, allowing for background information check (education, employment information, etc)?
Due to the way the legal system in the US works, there is a lot of posturing. Plenty of the forms you sign are not enforceable at all and only there to make people ignorant of the relevant laws afraid to exercise rights they actually have.
Interesting.... Could anyone be more specific? Plenty of "serious" firms ask about last salary earned (in fact, if you were to fill out an application on line, you may not proceed, as these fields tend to be mandatory). Is your advice to simply fill out $0?
I've always thought "current salary" was irrelevant and just a nasty tactic.
I always refuse to answer about previous salary. As I've said in other places in this thread, previous salary is irrelevant. They have the right to ask and I have the right to refuse to answer. It's part of the negotiation. If me not telling them is enough for them not to want to hire me then I would have been underpaid and unhappy anyway.
>Plenty of "serious" firms ask about last salary earned (in fact, if you were to fill out an application on line
Are you saying that a "serious" firm would have you fill out an application (online or otherwise)? I thought any career level job would expect a resume/CV.
With online applications you can just place 0 (if required), and make a note "unwilling to disclose" or "will discuss compensation within an interview" or "upon offer" etc.
Big finance firms (EG, top 3 in the world) require tax documentation and will rescind offers if your comp was exaggerated.
Mike Kimsal. I recognize that name. I once took on some contract work to modernize a web app for a manufacturing ocompany.
It was PHP work. And they had it built on a framework I'd never heard of called logicrate iirc. It was kinda a steaming pile man :) I mean, it just didn't age well, I'm sure. Over the last decade some awesome PHP frameworks were written that didn't exist, i'm guessing, when you wrote that.
It was started in 2000. I wouldn't say it was a 'steaming pile', but obviously I'm a bit biased. MVC structure, user mgt, automatic login/registration, database abstraction, a rudimentary ORM (very rudimentary), user groups, permissioning from a control panel that was able to be hooked in to from administrative modules. The closest thing around with any degree of flexibility at the time was phpnuke when lc was started.
It hasn't been worked on since 2003 - one of the original people behind it started cognifty.com several years ago.
He asked what I was making now. I fibbed. "About 10% less than that" i said.
I would strongly recommend against doing this, for the simple reason that they will need to know your last salary so they can calculate your tax. In the UK this is the P45 form: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P45_%28tax%29 If you have lied to them, they can terminate you immediately.
That's insane. I would never want to work in a country with laws like that.
Market rate is based on what something worth, not what it costs or what it previously cost so there is no reason for a company to need to know what you previously made.
Having said that, couldn't you just change your terminology and say "package" instead of "salary", then if there is a discrepancy you could say "well, a portion of the package was year end bonus which I obviously didn't get this year..."
I agree with not getting caught in a lie. Personally I don't like the lie approach, even if I can't be caught because it forces me to remember two sides: the truth and what I've told people.
I think the take away here is that you shouldn't be discussing previous salary in any case. If I'm asked I always say "I'm not at liberty to discuss contract conditions at my previous employer" or something to that effect. As I mentioned: as a free market entity, I should be getting what I'm worth now, not some variation of what I was worth 2 years ago when I last tested the market.
I enjoy the saying "To each, their own." But if it makes you feel any better, it was a 1 year old CPO lease return with 9k miles on it, about 20% below what sticker woulda been on a new one.
My dad said the same thing as you, though :) You're in good company!
For example, in 2008 I took a step into the big leagues (as I saw it). I had a mid-grade developers salary ($75k) for a couple years, and 7 years in the industry, and I wanted to step up.
I found a great opporunity for a profitable bootsrtapped startup in a beautiful city but one that was not by any stretch a technology hub.
I nailed a phone interview. He asked what I was looking for. I said $110k, match my current 3.4 week vacation, and $6k for relocation. He asked what I was making now. "About 10% less than that" i said. (I fibbed).
I focus on the top-line. The relo and extra vacation were nice, but most importantly they were bargaining chips.
I was flown down for interviews. Things went great. HR directory during the interview asked my comp needs, I told her the same I told the manager on the phone the previous week.
Everything went great. I flew home. Two days later, I get a call from HR lady.
"We think you'd be a great addition to the team. We'd like to extend you an offer."
Her offer was.... $75k, match my vaca and my relco request. My heart sank.
I paused for a moment and said "I make more than that now (lie). My original quote has some room to negotiate but that's outside my range." To which she said "We think this is fair, many of our senior guys make this." We talked for 10 more mins, I was getting nowhere. She was your usual hard-nosed HR type. So I excused myself and told her I'm thrilled they made and offer and I'd like some time to think it over.
For a moment I was bitter. That this was all a waste of my time. I flew across the country. I told them up front the range I was considering. Twice!
But then I thought, it's possible that they have no less a notion of actually paying me $75k than I have of actually getting everything in my quote.
So, I decided I needed to skirt HR. The hiring manager gave me his card at the interview. I called his office line. I said "Look, let me level with you" (lie) "The comp package I presented to you is fair I think. But I'd be willing to give a little back and earn the rest on merit once I'm working for you. I think being on your team would be a great thing for my career. But i just cannot take a pay cut to work for you." He asked what I was making now. I reiterated my fib from earlier. "I've hit bonus here every year, and my total comp is about $100k exactly."
I thought, I'm making him wince. He had to feel like he came up with a good deal. But my lie here boxed him in. He could offer $100k -- a lateral move -- but that seems a little wrong. He could do a token increase -- $103k but that seems almost a joke.
I hadn't yet actually made a counter-proposal, so I did just that. I was going to start by sacrificing the extra vaca. That extra 1.4 weeks vacation was a benefit worth about $3k a year at this rate. But in my preamble he just in passing made a comment about the vacation not being a problem because it's a small company and HR isn't really involved in that, the manager approves vacation without any guidelines or limits.
So, the next lamb on my list was the relo money. I had 3 positions built-in to my $6k quote:
1) I designed it so they could easily counter at a nice round $5k, feel like they got a good deal, and my relo was largely paid for.
2) I would propose that I pay for relo out of pocket and the reimburse me only for the movers themselves -- about $3k
3) Outright elimination.
I said "honestly, I really want to come work for you (true). I know my current comp is so high that you're boxed-in a bit, I'm already up against the top of your range it seems. (lie).
"I've used United Vanlines before. They were great. Some looking around made me feel the movers themselves would cost about $3k. In lieu of cash, I would be happy to pay the relo out of pocket and then submit the invoice from United for reimbursement. "
He talked around it for a mement then he tipped his hand a bit: "I like the creativity", he began, "but honestly the CEO here is against any kind of cash payment for new hires. No signing bonus. No relocation. Etc. He pays it, but begrudgingly. We feel we'd rather spread that money around to existing team members because you never know how a new hire will work out."
Then he said "I'll talk this over. We can probably find a way to match what you're making now if we go ahead and just reimburse you for the movers."
I liked where he was going with that but we werent' there yet. I cut him off.
"Truthfully, you live in a gorgeous city. It's no doubt an amazing place to live. I really feel like a 10% raise and a chance to work for you will make me feel good about the decision to leave behind all my roots here, all my friends and family. I really want to come work for you guys but I feel like any hint of shortchanging myself will start us off on the wrong foot. If we can make another go at that $110k quote, I'd be happy to pay relocation out of my pocket.
He said he'd have to run it by the CEO.
He calls back 30 mins later. "The best we can do is $109k and the normal process where we do a review and increase after 6 months would, for you, be moved to your 1 year anniversary. Now tell me, when can you start?"
I was elated. I just got myself a $35,000 raise. A nearly 50% increase on top of my $75k base.
Having the givebacks is important! It got me a LOT more from than.
A little post-game analysis though:
1) I thought the HR woman always hated me. Maybe because I went around her. Maybe because she thought they were grossly overpaying me. I dunno.
2) I later learned i was the highest paid guy on the team. When I ascended into a management roll I was given access to salary info though, in an oversight from HR, my managers salary was also listed. What did he have the month I was hired? An increase. From $106k to $116k. My negotiation got HIM a raise. A manager can't make less than his reports.
3) Being the highest paid guy isn't a good thing. It's really hard to outperform everybody else. So onlookers -- like, say, a micro managing CEO -- will question the salary gap. Also, I won't forget the day I bought a new Mercedes and I was asked to not make a big deal out of it and if asked, say that "I saved up for this for years." Ugh. Please.
4) NEGOTIATE EVERYTHING in the future.
5) I would've been smart to negotiate myself a future raise. Because I wasn't given any increase for 18 months, and even then only after pestering.
EDIT:
Let me add that I did this to deliberately try to swing for the fences. I was happy enough where I was.
Also, I had a perfect resume for this company. My technical merits were very strong, but more importantly, I had a lot of relevant domain knowledge.
I therefore felt i was in a strong bargaining position. Nowadays, if you're good at what you do, the way it';s so hard to find good devs means you probably are in a strong position as well.