I really enjoyed 4X games back in the genre's heyday. Not only Civilization, but also Colonization, Master of Magic and Master of Orion 1&2.
Have there been any new turn-based 4X games in recent times? I remember looking for a 4X flash game in 2010 and coming up empty handed. I don't really have time to play that kind of game anyway, but those were good memories.
Colonization beats hand down Civilization for me, anytime. It's more realistic and coherent (the tech trees in civ feel completely artificial) and it's great fun to play as different nations. The manual itself was also a great read, teaching you many thing about how the actual colonization took place. One of the best games by Sid Meier.
There was a hysterical review of Civ IV: Colonization by Ben Fritz that was so over the top with political correctness it almost had me rolling on the floor laughing. Seems his blog has gone offline, though. Some excerpts here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/84721-Civilization...
"Political correctness"? Ben Fritz was completely correct to ask why people are celebrating the colonial era with entirely unchallenging entertainment products. Colonization as a historical event was absolutely horrific and to make a game, something just for entertainment, in it without acknowledging this is straight-up wrong. Meier consciously skated away from the fact that colonials enslaved and exterminated other human beings in order to sell a game, and fucking well should be faulted for it. I mean, for god's sake, if you have a mission in a settlement and you start shelling it with artillery the natives will flock to your mission for protection. Do you, like, not see how shitty (not to mention ahistorical) that is? Or is it just that it didn't happen to white people so it doesn't matter?
And that isn't to say it's a bad game when divorced from the failure to accept and reasonably present the historical context that Meier wanted to play in. It's a tremendous game. I still think Colonization is a more fun experience than Civ, and the Religion and Revolution mod for Civ4Col is absolutely fantastic. But the game cannot be divorced from the astonishingly shitty historical context. RaR also does a lot (not as much as it could, but a lot more than anything Meier or MicroProse or Firaxis ever did) to make you answer those questions, too, and is a much, much better game for it.
> Meier consciously skated away from the fact that colonials enslaved and exterminated other human beings in order to sell a game,
I don't agree. Colonization as a game clearly shows there were different methods to colonize the new Land based on the nations' strategies. The French, for example, were rarely known to exterminate locals, on the contrary usually forged alliances and friendship with local populations. That's what you see as well in "The Last Mohican": french colons being very close to Indians, and there are many sources to confirm that point. So Colonization was not all done the Spanish way, and most of the deaths the locals endured came from viral infections spreading in non-immunized populations and certainly not slavery or battle. There were reports from Spaniards entering cities in south-America, expecting resistance but instead finding most of the people dying from infections.
The French certainly did, you're right, and Colonization even namedrops the coureurs de bois. But (as far as I can tell) there is not a single use of the word "Africa" in the game. The only mention of "slavery" that I can find in the game--which I have installed, because aside from its super problematic presentation of history it's a really great game--is in the little Colonopedia blurb about Bartolome de las Casas...where they then elide that he advocated enslaving Africans instead. (And, certainly, he later recanted that position. So say that too! But paint the whole picture.)
So, sure, you're right, #NotAllColonizers--but seriously, do you think that the ability to play in that way obviates the duty to actually present history as it, like, was, and not as will make your purchasers feel comfy?
> But there is not a single use of the word "Africa" in the game.
OK, I'll grant you that, but at the same time, massive slavery scale occurred mainly after 1600-1700 (see Wikipedia reference below) so while slave trade started earlier it was not prominent in the early colony days, and it was first led by Portuguese and Spanish before other nations opted in.
> It is estimated that more than half of the entire slave trade took place during the 18th century, with the British, Portuguese and French being the main carriers of nine out of ten slaves abducted from Africa.[44]
Certainly the game is not perfect on that aspect, but since it's an American game, it would probably be very sensitive to touch upon that subject in the first place. I can't even imagine how that would be sold there if slavery had been integrated.
> OK, I'll grant you that, but at the same time, massive slavery scale occurred mainly after 1600-1700 (see Wikipedia reference below) so while slave trade started earlier it was not prominent in the early colony days, and it was first led by Portuguese and Spanish before other nations opted in.
The game ends in 1850 if you haven't completed the Revolutionary War before then. And Simon Bolivar is available as a "founding father". He was born in 1783. The 18th century is very much in play.
> Certainly the game is not perfect on that aspect, but since it's an American game, it would probably be very sensitive to touch upon that subject in the first place. I can't even imagine how that would be sold there if slavery had been integrated.
You are really underselling it. It's not "not perfect", it's bad. And I am an American, saying this. If honesty won't sell, fine. Don't make it. That's a better alternative than to whitewash history.
Uh actually if you're going to define it as 'Art' then it's entitled to take a "view point" which you may not thinks is correct, but which is intended to cause a reaction. Which you are having. There is no duty to be truthful - which is why it's "Art" and not a history book.
And, what do you mean by "correct" anyway. You mean the current view of what you deem to be correct - which may not be others viewpoint, and which probably was not the viewpoint of people in future or the past. And, anyway the only viewpoint that matter is that of the creator of the work.
So no sorry, I think you mean "if I did something about Colonization I would do it differently and the current work does not properly represent my viewpoint".
You are asserting that doing your level best to ignore the worst offenses of American history is somehow valid.
This isn't merely disagreement on something that's opinion-based. This is ignoring factual things that happened. White guys rewriting history to make then look good is objectively bad. This is simply not that complex.
Never saw the RaR mod, thanks for the tip. I don't remember the mission/artillery thing from the game, either, but why wouldn't it make sense to take cover in a sturdy building when cannonballs are falling on your village?
Because it converts them to be your units. It turns them into "Indian Convert" units that are agricultural producers but useless in manufacturing capacities.
No, conversion happens from establishing a mission and keeping peace with a native power for a long enough period of time. Conversion from attacking them? Let's be real here. It's a stand-in for European abuses from Haiti to Canada and all points between.
And you know it's indefensible, so let's not play dumb.
You're not describing the mechanic well enough to make that clear. You're saying that if you had a mission in an Indian village, and then you shelled the village with artillery, the Indians became converts all of a sudden? Or was it when another power attacked? The way you describe it it actually sounds like a bug or an exploit. If the attack had to come from another civ, maybe it represents "refugees" flocking to your civ?
You are taking for granted that everyone here prefers the 20th-century Marx-Zinn (yes, politically correct) version of American history, and as a consequence of that, that Meier was deliberately trying to "lie" about that history (which is itself false). If you drop your problematic assumption, there's no way to get to "indefensible" and "play dumb" from this feature/bug you're describing.
It could be a bug. Given their shitty treatment of People Who Aren't White in the sequel, too, I am comfortable not giving them the benefit of the doubt.
As for your second paragraph: "Marx-Zinn" history? Dude! We have the receipts for people that done got bought and sold. Forget your attempts to cast history that happens to not glorify every white person ever in that "politically correct" light, these are primary sources. Are primary sources hissssssss socialist hissssssss too?
There is nothing "politically correct" about "the people you are making a game about systematically enslaved and exterminated people and you have a duty to not look the other way." That's not even "lefty", that's just being a basically functional human being. Does it make you upset that you are not entitled to rework history because it looks bad for Dead White People? That's a shame, but it's minimum viable humanity. I promise you that it's not that hard to meet that low, low bar.
Conventional history deals with things that are actually true, not with things that fit the narrative you prefer. There was no systematic extermination in American history (at least not until 1974). European settlers in the New World did not invent slavery, instead, they fought a great crusade to end it. There is a great deal to celebrate about the colonization of the new world and the creation of the new nations here. The narrative you are telling about American history was basically invented in the 20th century to fit the Marxist vision of history as perpetual war between oppressor and oppressed. We would not use the term "politically correct" to describe it if it were actually "correct".
Wow. Wow. Wow. Is that really your dodge? "Well, we didn't invent it!"
We did it. It is our job to fairly and accurately represent our history. Guess what? The facts are clear as fucking day: We. Imported. Black. People. We. Enslaved. Natives. There is no dodge to that. There is no escaping that. There is only acknowledgement of it. This is not "narrative", we have the receipts.
And omitting it in a "historical" game in favor of heroification is unforgivable.
You've thrown me for a loop here. I thought your complaint was that the game glorified oppression of the Indians, slavery, etc, and that we should all feel guilty for enjoying it. Instead, you seem to be saying that the game omits slavery, and that we should all feel guilty for playing a game that doesn't glorify it.
Look: We did not enslave anyone. Slavery is not among the things that we celebrate about the colonization of the new world. We celebrate the brave explorers who sailed off into the unknown, and the Pilgrims who left the safety of home to build a "city on a hill". We celebrate the poor and outcast who took the risk of building their own businesses and farms so they could pass on a better life to their posterity. We celebrate colonists who found out how to govern themselves as equals, and ultimately charted their own courses as free men. This is what the game was about.
Slave-based agriculture existed at that time, and it spread to the Americas, but it was not the "big idea" of colonization, it was not invented in that era and it was not characteristic of it. It's just a fact of human nature: in every time, in every place, there have always been Democrats.
There was a new version based on the Civ 4 engine (http://www.2kgames.com/civ4/colonization/) but it wasn't as good as the original. The main problem was that the game ended too soon. You'd only have three cities or so, and suddenly it would be time to hold your revolution. Realistic, perhaps, but frustrating when you want to build up the whole continent.
It was absolutely terrible, I got it and was crushed by how bad it was. It felt like a Colonization-themed Civ IV (which I guess is what it was), rather than a Colonization remake.
While I absolutely love EU4 (and CK2 by the same dev), it is not a turn-based strategy game and its scale is different from the Civ-likes (not 4X either).
If one is after a modern turn-based game I'd still recommend the new Civ and XCom games by Firaxis.
EUIV is definitely a 4x. There's exploration, expansion, exploitation, and extermination. Almost every game will have the latter three, and depending on which country you play, the first item can be either fundamental or irrelevant.
You and I both. I have never played a Civ game, but have played other 4X games and this game has be absolutely itching to play it. Its been a while since I have anticipated a game release this much. Oct. 24th isn't too awful far though.
HoMM games are not 4X. They're great[0], but they're not like Civ at all.
[0] Though I prefer the King's Bounty remake[1]
[1] Although 1C is excessive in its milking, Armored Princess + Crossworlds had a somewhat better balance and interesting new units wrt The Legend, but Warriors of the North got seriously long in the tooth, felt like "well we'll just reskin a few units and change the magic/rage balance and call it a day
i gotta read posts more closely, the Space Empires games are really fun, you gotta play SE5, Malfador (the creator) took it into pretty cool looking 3D and the combat looks greats.
I ended up not like SEV for some reason I can't quite put my thumb on. On the flip side SEIV is a lightweight enough game I have it zipped up and stashed in my dropbox so I can download it on whatever and get to playing. It'll even run on pretty old hardware. I used to play it on my netbook quite happily.
Although it's not new now, you should definitely try the Frog City Imperialism series(they're on GOG). Very taut, economic-oriented 4X games, they're turn based and spiritually precede the Paradox games in how they move away from the wargame unit-movement and city-management trope in favor of mechanics around province boundaries, transit links, and centralized production sliders.
There are occasionally new 4X games that appear on Steam but I haven't found one I like yet.
Actually, maybe you shouldn't try Imperialism if you don't have a few days free. It is a dangerously addicting game, especially the second one.
I can't recommend Distant Worlds enough, if you are looking for a 'Paradox game' in space (it's not produced by Paradox though). There is also Stardrive which is similar, though also much simpler.
Gal Civ (1 and 2) were pretty fun, and the AI is genuinely top notch; way better than typical 4X AI, in that it actually ran the different civilizations as having different interests, rather than all against you. Brad Wardell has garnered a lot of attention (not all of it good), but Stardock's stuff is generally pretty good.
The best 4X game I've ever played is called "business". It's incredibly deep and complex, never ceases to surprise me, has unbelievably versatile multi-player options, and requires constant creativity to come up with winning strategies. One of the great features of this game is that the points earned in-game can be spent in any shop in exchange for goods and services. For example, you could earn £5000 points in-game and, after paying tax (one of the more annoying features - who asked for that?) you can spend that at the Apple Store to buy a spanking new computer. How cool is that?
There are all sorts of scenarios available, and depending on your starting resources and chosen strategy the game can provide a vastly different feel. It's really good, I recommend it.
One big downside compared to traditional 4X games, though, is you're never really in control of anything. So if you really crave that sense of control that you get from having a well-organised empire and steamrolling over your opposition in the controlled environment of Civ-like games then you will want to go back to the traditional computer-based versions from time to time.
"£5000 points in-game and, after paying tax (one of the more annoying features - who asked for that?)"
If you had spent some time playing Civilization, you would know that taxes allow your country to have things like roads, an army, public education, and many other things that put together create the conditions for you to play "business" :)
In Civ IV though, it's possible to get enough great merchants and then run at 0% tax rate in some kind of scientific utopia, which I presume is where silicon valley libertarians got their ideas from.
Have there been any new turn-based 4X games in recent times? I remember looking for a 4X flash game in 2010 and coming up empty handed. I don't really have time to play that kind of game anyway, but those were good memories.