> Mr. Jang said that as time went on, the North began diverting high school students with the best math skills into a handful of top universities, including a military school specializing in computer-based warfare called Mirim University, which he attended as a young army officer.
I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gotten in trouble. (I don't want to single him out, but he's the best example I have at hand.) For the past two years, he's gone to North Korea to volunteer teaching computer science.[1][2] At best, his students' skills will be wasted on some silly Android apps praising the supreme leader. More likely, these students will go on to make software for less-than-ethical purposes: wargame simulation, nuclear explosion modeling, missile guidance systems, or network/server subversion.
I'm not saying this software shouldn't exist, just that the world would be better-off if the DPRK had more difficulty writing it. And I'm surprised the State Department hasn't fined or revoked the passport of any American who has aided the DPRK in this manner.
That is a very scary argument. To deny education because it could be used in ways you may not like is a very unfortunate position to take. Education is likely the only way a system like North Korea's will ever fall short of a militarized take over - another horrible fate to wish on those same people. And were it to fall, an education is all that would permit their survival in the world at large. To deny individuals a modern education is a particularly cruel punishment - maybe more so to punish those who would wish to educate.
I agree that it's a scary argument. That's why I was careful in how I put it forth. The problem is that many skills are dual-use. At some point, a threshold is reached where a student is more likely to use the knowledge to harm than to help. This threshold depends on the skill and the student.
To use a hypothetical: Would you condone someone teaching particle physics in North Korea? How about biology? Chemistry? Turbine engineering? Teaching any of these would probably increase North Korea's ability to threaten and harm its people and the rest of the world. It's sad that this is the case, but it's hard to argue otherwise.
Unfortunately, I seriously doubt education will help free North Korea. If you read the stories of defectors, you'll find that almost everyone in universities is indoctrinated. Also, because of how people are encouraged to report each other, no underground network of dissenters can exist. Even if 90% of North Koreans wanted to overthrow the government, anyone who voiced dissidence to a few friends would likely be reported and thrown in a prison camp (if not outright executed), along with their family. It doesn't take much to control many.
I really wish it was as easy as, "Education is good." But there can be dire consequences to actions, even ones as typically benign as teaching others. It's important to have a finely-tuned sense of ethics, otherwise we risk harming people who we mean to help.
You aren't exhibiting a finally tuned sense of ethics.
Exactly which ethical principle(s) are you following?
This seems like a 5 minutes of thought kind of solution to an incredibly complex problem.
North Korea can buy/steal/grow the knowledge they need. They already have nukes, and are working on missiles. I think the notion that we should sanction education (on top of the existing sanctions) is just playing by the already broken playbook we (the rest of the world) have been to date. We are feeding their propaganda machine on how evil we are.
Just a question, how is the DPRK any MORE evil than other states the US happily does business with? (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Israel, China, etc) What in particular makes them evil?
I agree that it is a messed up situation and some horrible shit is going on. But I also have a feeling we are being manipulated by the media.
>I think the notion that we should sanction education (on top of the existing sanctions) is just playing by the already broken playbook we (the rest of the world) have been to date. We are feeding their propaganda machine on how evil we are.
We are not obligated in any way to provide education to North Korea. Saying we are "evil" for not educating another country is quite a stretch.
Which is why we're discussing denying them education, rather than merely not educating them. Denying or obstructing their education is pretty darn evil.
What's scary is the level of your indoctrination. North Korea has been surviving decades in almost complete world isolation, because it opposes capitalism. It's not mordor, it's a society with a structure that is not compatible with western capitalism. Everything you think you know about has been filtered to hide any positive aspects of such a society and to exacerbate the negatives. This was done to Vietname, to China, USSR. This was done to Obama during the healthcare "debate".
North Korea has withstood decades of economic isolation, and yet it lives and its people live much better than citizens of Somalia and other great capitalist nations, not that anyone would let you know. You're not freeing North Korea by isolating it and starving it, you are killing it, and the people. You say it doesn't tame much to control many, but this applies to the West as much as it does anywhere. You have a set of values, and you are in harmony with enough people, you can work for them, with them. The same applies in North Korea, and USSR (where I'm from). The country is a single company, the CEO might be eccentric, but people do have jobs, work hard, have education, healthcare and believe in communism. What they don't have is Hollywood, McDonnalds and Fox News. And this is why you want to "free them". They have nuclear weapons not because they are evil, but because they know what US does to countries people like you believe need to be freed.
Well, the US didn't have much issue with European fascism in Spain, or with supporting fascism in Chile and otherwhere in Lat. Am., not to mention the horrendous state that Saudi Arabia is...
It is foolhardy to defend North Korea so the only option to argue is that America is bad too, but what you are arguing is the way of the world. If the US thought they could play NK against China they certainly would.
North Korea is not a fascist or nationalistic regime. And it's only been turned into a concentration camp by the West through sanctions. It's not even any more antithesis to democracy either. The party members are elected. The institution members are promoted by performance like anywhere else. The 'supreme leader' being some sort of a Sauron is a fantasy. Since you're comparing to Nazi Germany, you should also know that Hitler wasn't some sort of a god who bent everyone to his will. He was a leader of a party and a movement with the fascist ideology. Please don't equate Nazism and Communism.
Unfortunately, every country has prison colonies. USA has more than anyone, including abroad. You choose to believe 'Database Center for North Korean Human Rights' from which this article is sourced, that it seeks to publicize the truth and isn't funded by CIA. I believe otherwise, after comparing activities of human rights organizations in countries all over the world. It makes me quite sad that the human rights cause and genuinely well meaning people are used to further US imperialism.
Sure. My country(Poland) used to be communist for nearly 50 years, and you know what we called ourselves? Democratic Republic of Poland, just like North Korea calls itself democratic. There were elections, party members were elected - but it was all corrupt through and through. The same party would win with 99.9% of the votes, party members were chosen by who gave the largest bribe or who was closest family member. And the secret police didn't make people "disappear" because of any Western sanctions on the East - it's because they were bad people with bad morals. North Korean government is a bad government, where people at the top have everything and people below them have very little to nothing. Just because they are not starving like people in Africa are, doesn't mean that their system "works". It doesn't.
I love how american and european chauvinism continues to conquer reason in the 21th century. Why mention Africa when most of the world's malnourished people are in Asia? With the great variance that can occur on a continent why mention continents at all? If one must it is irresponsible to omit that both continents were forced into producing cash crops for export to Western Europe.
Does that mean that the Western European models of governance work? Duh!
>Why mention Africa when most of the world's malnourished people are in Asia?
Because in the US, at least in my experience, 'starving people in africa' is kind of a colloquial trope - it is more readily referenced than starving people in asia, since we don't see charity organizations constantly using asian faces to advertise their foundations.
>forced into producing cash crops for export to Western Europe
Who exactly went around the the countries in africa and asia and disallowed them from growing their own food instead of cash crops?
My bet is that these places found economic incentive in growing these crops rather than what they would consume locally - whether the global economy is a net benefit or net loss for a poor country is an entirely different discussion
Ok, most of world's malnourished people are in Asia, so now I can't say that people are starving in Africa without being accused of European chauvinism. Got it.
Everyone is saying that North Korea is a bloody dictatorship where people are starving to death. Medias, scientists, tourists who were there (yes, you can actually go there), geopoliticians, ... There is just some evidence everywhere. There is no conspiracy about North Korea and this has nothing to do with capitalism.
They have giant statues of their leader and a massive painting of him in the most prestigious place of the country. On official articles, the leader is mentioned everywhere. They manufacture 'pins' with the face of the leader on it and everyone is wearing it. There is painting of the leader in almost every house. (do I need to continue ?)
I am pretty sure they were mentioning that in the sense that North Korea has a full blown cult of personality around their leader (who is an unelected life-long dictator).
You'll note that there isn't a giant statue of Obama on the White House lawn and in every town square. In N. Korea this is the case.
Adult Americans are not legally required to wear lapel pins featuring prominent past presidents, nor are they required to have images of those presidents in their homes with nothing else permitted on the wall that hosts those images, while in N. Korea they must.
Americans can freely speak a poor opinion of Obama or the Congress or the SCOTUS and not fear that they and their family will be imprisoned and tortured, unlike N. Korea.
The press can say what they like about Obama/other branches of the government without fear of censorship and imprisonment, unlike N. Korea where there is only state-run media that fawn over their leader.
I think that was what they were trying to get at even if they didn't fully expand it.
They don't have a free press either, and political or social dissent tends to result in people being "disappeared". And they have rather a lot of artillery pointed at Seoul.
Where was the free press in the lead up to the Iraq war? How would you know of all the 'disappeared'? There very well might be, but just by stating that like a fact, you're repeating something you simply heard in the 'free press', helping spread the narrative. I'm sure there is ideological cleansing there, so is there in any society, especially one under ideological attack. And I'm sure there is way more artillery pointed at North Korea than exists in North Korea.
I have no doubt that western media loves to play up the stereotypes of that region, but having read a few personal accounts from people who have escaped North Korea, those defectors opinions tend to align with a lot of the negative reporting on the DPRK.
North Korean concentration camps, for example, are several orders of magnitude more horrific than the US prison camps you compared them to. And it's significantly easier to end up in an NK concentration camp than it is in prison too.
Families being rounded up and taken away and/or killed is a common theme discussed by the defectors as well.
Now I'm not saying that America (nor any other country for that matter) is perfect. If anything, I happen to agree with you that the US has some hugely hypocritical tendencies. But for all America's faults, the DPRK is still in a whole other of league of bad.
let me guess - you have this Putin guy as a personal hero and the best thing that happened to Russia for decades, right? :)
Black & white world you live in, I think some time outside your home country would do you good.
>To use a hypothetical: Would you condone someone teaching particle physics in North Korea? How about biology? Chemistry? Turbine engineering? Teaching any of these would probably increase North Korea's ability to threaten and harm its people and the rest of the world. It's sad that this is the case, but it's hard to argue otherwise.
How's NK different from the US to that regard?
You know, the one country among those two that actually blasted two civilian cities with atomic bombs, sprayed Agent Orange over Vietnam, and has chronically had leaders who "speak with god"...
Perhaps we should consider that there are some countries where it is not proper for us to be offering such education? I can name very few countries deserving of nothing more than basic food and medical and North Korea is one of them.
Don't throw the guilt on him or others,their fate is already abysmal because of their government and sending them a few teachers is not going to benefit their society and if its for feels, well they are misdirected and other countries are far more deserving of our time
I think you've massively devalued an entire people based on the actions of their government...
Let's not forget the great value and results of CS education in the US:
- spying for pretty much everybody, regardless of location
- drone guidance systems to kill people unlawfully
- missile systems for air strikes on countries purported to have WMDs
- millions of $ spent on silly apps that arguably do nothing to improve quality of life, whilst millions suffer and die of starvation
Do you really know enough about North Korea's tech community to say that "More likely, these students will go on to make software for less-than-ethical purposes"?
Given it spends around a third of its GDP on military activities, and is a thoroughly planned economy it seems a relatively straightforward inference to make.
Yes but the discussion was about whether you could assume a DPRK computer science grad would go into military (or associated work). Using military spending as a % of GDP as a rough yardstick does suggest that the number of DPRK citizens involved in military activity is very high.
Especially as each comp sci grad probably has greater potential to contribute to GDP than say your average farm labourer.
I flatter myself that I was a pretty competent computer science student, but I'm certainly not a security researcher. I think you're overestimating how much basic computer science knowledge has any applicability to offensive black hat hacking.
Your argument is close to "Nobody should teach basic chemistry in the middle east, because hey, terrorists might use that knowledge to make bombs."
Learning and knowledge are _good_things_, for people anywhere, including NK. If enough people are educated, it is feasable to expect they would push for regime change and more freedoms for themselves. I expect this will eventually happen in China as well where the cat is out of the bag and more and more people have an expectation of individual liberty, leading them to desire political freedom as well.
Do you really think Will Scott gave the DRPK the breakthroughs it needed in any of those areas? I think you would be delusional to think he set them up to significantly improve in these areas. The only thing holding the DRPK back is the fact the socio-economic situation in the country is in complete shambles. Not that lack of American Computer Science teachers.
Plus, More than likely he (and others like him) are providing intel or participating in espionage on behalf of Western Governments.
Yes, and that same argument can be made for pretty much any other country... why teach computer science to US, as they have shown they can't be trusted - they will probably end up in the NSA!
Are you seriously comparing the NSA to North Korea? This is a country that starves and kills millions of its own people. They imprison, torture, and execute their citizens for being related to someone who watched South Korean television. It is quite likely the most harmful regime on the planet. Read some stories from North Korean defectors. Then let me know just how content you are with people contributing to the DPRK's education system.
But to respond to your real argument: It's a matter of probabilities. The chance that an American programmer will work on software harmful to humanity is quite small. The chance that a North Korean programmer will do so is massive. Even if the person doesn't want to work on missile guidance or centrifuge control software, they can be ordered to, and their family can be held hostage. There is no such thing as a conscientious objector in North Korea.
>The chance that an American programmer will work on software harmful to humanity is quite small. The chance that a North Korean programmer will do so is massive.
Spoken like a true patriot.
In actual life, most of the world hates the US interventions (too numerous to mention, including toppling legitimate leaders and installing friendly to the US dictators) and invasions (from Phillipines back in the day, to Korea and Vietnam and on to Bush's wars).
Besides South Korea, and if that, nobody has much to fear from North Korea, an insignificant provincial state that 99% of the time deals with its own issues.
Compare that to a hypocritical world "cop", dealing BS "democracy" all around the globe (e.g. mostly ruining previously stable countries to get rid of dictators it doesn't like, while doing business with or helping install dictators it does like elsewhere) to serve its interests.
"The chance that an American programmer will work on software harmful to humanity is quite small. The chance that a North Korean programmer will do so is massive."
It is the same argument made by nuclear non-proliferation countries. Only responsible countries should own the nuclear weapons. Well, guess how that argument turned out. The only country to use nuclear weapon is the one calls itself responsible one.
Along the lines of your argument, DPRK citizens shouldn't be learning physics, chemistry, mathematics, aerospace engineering, mechanical engineering, civil engineering and medical or any subject because they all can be used as "weapon" for nefarious purposes.
Keeping the population of a country uneducated because you don't agree with the government running the country is discriminatory and racist. No person irrespective of race or belief or country of citizenship should be denied education.
Your line about nuclear proliferation is a total non-sequitur. The US of 1945 is not the US of today. Our ethics and standards have risen significantly in the past 65 years. You might as well call the US hypocritical for backing UN resolutions against racism because of segregation up to the 60's.
> Along the lines of your argument, DPRK citizens shouldn't be learning physics, chemistry, mathematics, aerospace engineering, mechanical engineering, civil engineering and medical or any subject because they all can be used as "weapon" for nefarious purposes.
Except for medicine, probably yes. See my other comment for why I think that is the case.[1]
> Keeping the population of a country uneducated because you don't agree with the government running the country is discriminatory and racist. No person irrespective of race or belief or country of citizenship should be denied education.
How is it racist? I have no ethical issues with South Koreans or North Korean defectors learning these things. I'm simply pointing out a concrete example of how, in some cases, education can be harmful on net. Simplifying it to, "Education is good." won't steer you wrong often. But when it does, the consequences can be horrific.
And to say one doesn't agree with the DPRK is putting it far too mildly. Read Nothing to Envy: Ordinary Lives in North Korea.[2] The stories will make you thankful to be in whatever country you live in. For many people, North Korea truly is hell on earth. It's far worse than anything Orwell wrote about.
If the leaders of the DPRK could get away with it, they would rain fire on South Korea and the US tomorrow. The only thing stopping them is lack of ability. Educating their citizens helps them gain technology that will most likely be used to achieve the goals of the DPRK's leaders. That will almost certainly lead to more harm than good.
> Your line about nuclear proliferation is a total non-sequitur. The US of 1945 is not the US of today. Our ethics and standards have risen significantly in the past 65 years. You might as well call the US hypocritical for backing UN resolutions against racism because of segregation up to the 60's.
Has it though?
Between now and WWII you've still had several -arguably illegal- wars such as Iraq and Vietnam (and not to mention the cold war with Russia and tensions with Cuba and China). You've had a president assassinated. You've had more than 2 decades of racial segregation; and yet more assassinations (this time of figureheads who campaigned for equality such as Martin Luther King). You've have gun laws that most of the rest of the developed world considers right wing. You have your own breed of religious fanatics - which is so riff that election candidates have to prove to believe in God just stand a chance at becoming president. Then there's the NSA leaks - a whole essay could be written just referencing that organisation alone. And don't get me started on the xenophobic beliefs that the likes of Fox News spreads.
From an outsiders perspective looking in, America hasn't looked too respectful to either it's own nationals nor other countries in the decades following the second world war. So it really doesn't surprise me that many outside of the west might consider the US (and Europe) as bloodthirsty.
> The US of 1945 is not the US of today. Our ethics and standards have risen significantly in the past 65 years.
This is true, but what is also true is that most of the world outside the US and EU views the West (which is something like 12% of the worlds population) as an extremely bloodthirsty and cruel culture/society (regarding external behaviour) that is the greatest threat the humanity faces today.
You want to believe that the US is ethical and good because you probably live there and like your country and people, which I can understand very well.
Not at all. In the US, we computer scientists have a wealth of opportunities to which we can apply our knowledge and education. Presumably in NK, you are limited to doing their government's bidding.
I disagree. I believe education is an excellent way to free the north korean people from the brainwashing machine that is the DPRK.
More DPRK people with the hacker mindset (e.g. not just accepting answers but asking questions, a hunger for knowledge, etc) would in the long term be a really great thing for everyone but the leaders of DPRK.
I used to think that way, that education would inevitably lead people to more egalitarian belief structures. Then I spent a few years at school in the US. I met many very educated people (ie well beyond undergrad) that scared the heck out of me. It is very possible to have an advanced CS degree and still believe in a ridged class system.
Yeah. I used to believe technical education will give you a particular outlook at the world, will make you a more careful thinker, etc. I don't believe that anymore. Here are some other things that I've seen going along with a CS degree:
- you can have a CS degree and be a total and utter asshole (for some reason I though education makes people more polite)
- you can have a CS degree and be an antivaxxer who sees vaccines as Illuminati's conspiracy (not joking here)
- you can have a CS degree and not have an ounce of rational thinking in you
- you can have a CS degree and not be able to code your way out of a paper bag
> or network/server subversion.
>
> I'm not saying this software shouldn't exist...
The world would be a better place if subversion didn't exist. As long as the North Koreans keep using it they won't get very far. Maybe Will Scott is funded by the CIA if he's promoting that over git...
Right, in US, the government will never force anyone to perform unethical work. That's an interesting assumption.
What if a skilled programmer in North Korea volunteers to perform unethical work?
What if a skilled programmer in US volunteers to perform unethical work?
What if "ethics" simply depends on your country of origin?
To be honest, what you and the grandparent post should be saying is that North Korea is the enemy, and to help the enemy in any way is "bad". Why pretend that you're helping the people of North Korea by not helping the people of North Korea so they can't help their country?
NK is not an enemy in the same way Iran might be. NK is a Stalinist regime in 2015.
>Right, in US, the government will never force anyone to perform unethical work. That's an interesting assumption.
I think it's a reasonable assumption. You can't be forced to join the military (unless there's a draft) or an intelligence agency, and if you work for one, you can't be forced to do something you don't want to do; you can just quit. They can threaten you with prosecution if you leak anything, but they can't make you do something you don't want to.
In NK you can both be forced to work for an organization and you can be forced to do specific tasks you may not want to do, at risk of torture or death.
>What if "ethics" simply depends on your country of origin?
That is true of course. And no doubt there are going to be NK programmers who are ethical and do nothing but help their populace. Obviously many US programmers are performing unethical tasks daily as well. But again, in the US these will almost always be voluntary actions.
I think educating NK citizens is a perfectly good idea, just there are certain topics that perhaps they should not be taught, due to their oppressive and Machiavellian regime.
It's honestly sad that you picked Stuxnet, an attack that did no appreciable harm to human lives, as opposed to the entire arsenal of munitions available to the Joint Armed Forces.
We have invented, but more importantly manufactured, a lot of pretty fucking effective weaponry.
"I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gotten in trouble. (I don't want to single him out,"
You are still doing it by writing that, and actually you aren't suggesting that the trouble to him would come from DPRK, but you are "nicely" suggesting he should get "in trouble" in the US just for lecturing in DPRK. Basically claiming, without writing the words that you are "surprised" he isn't considered a "traitor":
I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gotten in trouble. (I don't want to single him out, but he's the best example I have at hand.) For the past two years, he's gone to North Korea to volunteer teaching computer science.[1][2] At best, his students' skills will be wasted on some silly Android apps praising the supreme leader. More likely, these students will go on to make software for less-than-ethical purposes: wargame simulation, nuclear explosion modeling, missile guidance systems, or network/server subversion.
I'm not saying this software shouldn't exist, just that the world would be better-off if the DPRK had more difficulty writing it. And I'm surprised the State Department hasn't fined or revoked the passport of any American who has aided the DPRK in this manner.
1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8869265
2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6829558